“Coming Out of the Closet” With Thoughts on the Ongoing “Christian-Gay” War
by drfuture2013
Friends, this is another one of those blog posts I may live to regret, but I think we now live in the days when we as followers of Christ need to speak openly and plainly on difficult topics. We need more honest “thinking out loud” (even speculating, with the expectation of changing or modifying views upon further contemplation) and humbly challenging ourselves as well as others to compare our reflection (and its culture) to that of Christ. We need to attempt to rightly judge how well we resemble His mindset and mission, and the spirit of His priorities and values, while understanding the Gospels and words of the Apostles in that light. The ironic “coming out of the closet” title refers to the feeling a Christian believer in our culture often feels when they ask “questions that should not be asked”, and express sympathies for “unthinkable thoughts” and “depraved individuals”, knowing that they will be misunderstood, castigated, marginalized and ostracized as a result – leading them to sympathize with others who announce their personal views and convictions with the knowledge they will experience the same as well.
A very good Christian friend of mine included me in an email chain with an attached article from the Lousiville newspaper, as yet another article about the need for Christian resistance to the gay “agenda”, written by Albert Mohler Jr., President of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, you can read the article here.
The following are a few “off the cuff” comments I have concerning the article, and the general (but very difficult) topic of how America’s Christian community might deal with the “gay” issue, and some other food for thought:
- First of all, I need to acknowledge who Dr. Mohler is, what is his foundational doctrinal belief and how it influences him on this issue. Dr. Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (the denomination in which I was raised and active for four decades) and other popular theologians such as John Piper and R.C. Sproul (and thirty percent or more of Southern Baptist churches, evidently) are prominent Calvinists. Any churches or Christians who claim to be “reformed” almost always embrace the tenets of Calvinism. In case you are not aware, Calvinists worship a demiurge-type god of mal intent (such as was acknowledged but resisted by the Gnostics) that intentionally created the majority of mankind to be sent without recourse eternally to the Lake of Fire, for His expressed pleasure – in essence, having the same desires and agenda as Satan himself. God intentionally withholds the lifeline of saving irresistable grace of salvation because He wants to withhold it. This is described as a “predestination” in which God irresistably foreordains the destiny of most people to eternal agony. The rest of Calvinism’s “TULIP” beliefs – including the irresistibility of man’s salvation of the “elect” (i.e., those eternally lucky enough to win the “pre-natal lottery” but having no merit OR even desire of their own), or their assertion that Jesus did not die with the intention or will to save “all men”, inevitably follows from this view of the “sovereignty” of God being a bullying bulldozer that programs all of us and the universe as automotons. This means that God made Satan fall and rebel, and Adam and Eve to fall, and all who obey such programming from God will be rewarded with a one-way trip to the Lake of Fire. This means that any challenge by God in scripture to “choose ye this day whom ye will serve” or any other decision posed ot man is a cruel joke from God that cannot be asserted, because man is unable to make such choices, his total fate having been already preordained; it also makes evangelism a farce amongst the masses of unchangeably pre-saved or pre-lost. This view of the “total depravity” of men rather than just being fallen (even though they are created in God’s image, and proclaimed “good” at the time) and the lack of any hope for the many “non-elect” helps such believers view suspected non-elect as animals and cannon fodder, because God has the same agenda and lack of value of them. For just one example, popular national Christian media host and Reformed pastor Kevin Swanson stated on air recently that God is “kind” to gays by giving them AIDS. They also insist that this view is the only way to interpret Scripture; in general, they tend to be argumentative and view themselves as more savvy with Scripture as its lawyers where doctrine supercedes mercy, and are very harsh in tone toward those who disagree or live differently, desiring to impose their values on others much as Calvin did upon pain of torture or death in his totalitarian rule in Geneva. In effect they make God “depraved” as the author of mankind’s wretched state and fate, to which I assert that the only “depraved one” is Calvin himself, and those who follow him. I believe that this doctrine is a fundamental blasphemy of the foundational character of God, “who is not willing that any should perish”. Having said this, I ask myself that if I believe that Calvinists, including Dr. Mohler, so misunderstand the fundamental character of God, His perspective on humanity and their state, as well as what the Bible reflects on these matters, why should I regard anything he has to say on this matter?
- I continue with the following comments with the understanding that I do not believe Scripture indicates that God desires homosexual relations for mankind; He did mention spiritual covenants He acknowledges as marriage that describe those between a man and a woman (although same-sex marriage as opposed to their sexual activity was not addressed directly, to my knowledge), while New Testament writings allude to it being an analogy of the relationship fo Christ and the Church. Having said that, Dr. Mohler goes so far as to suggest that opposition to the gay lifestyle is the “the essence of the Gospel of Jesus Christ”. Is that a wee bit of a stretch? Is that the reason Jesus came to earth to die on the cross – to stop gay marriage? Is that what “sets men free”? In fact, beyond His opinion on the matter, do we have evidence that this topic is a “front burner” issue for God at all, as His primary concern? Is that the main message we want to send to a dying world about the Church – that our main focus is stopping people outside the Church from having civil rights such as gay marriage? Is this approach and reputation with its public emphasis really being effective in winning more people to Christ as “fishers of men”? If Christian leaders want to tell the world that this is the main focus the Church has, then they are being very successful with it, because that appears to be about all they talk about in the public, to the point that those outside the church see them as paranoid and obsessive. I understand why many Christian ministries would beat this drum, because scaring people about those who are different has always been an effective way to raise money and become quite a “war profiteer” in the process, whether it be a “culture war” variety or some other; however, in terms of the Church in America at large, their desire to “win” on this issue is a battle that has caused them to lose a “war” of their higher calling in their “ministry of reconciliation”, not by disagreeing on homosexual activity but rather their excessive hostility and desire to control what others do with their own lives, often by the the use of Caesar’s civil statutes.
- Regarding scriptural exhortations, I concede that there are severe measures in the Mosaic Law for such homosexual behavior (particularly since Jewish men at the time seem to have a proclivity for debased sexual behavior with the Canaanites and their other neighbors), on par with penalties for disobeying parents, but being under a New Covenant, law and priesthood I look only to the teachings of Christ and His Apostles for my authority, and I am bound to them alone (as since I violate much of the Ten Commandments (i.e. the Sabbath) and sacrificial and dietary laws, I myself would be subject to death as well as gays if I used such criteria to judge me (as well as rejecting Christ my priest)). Jesus interacted with many people involved in sexual immorality, developing relationships and interacting. He acknowledged that the Woman at the Well had a very serious and unacceptable track record with marriage as well, (as well as living in a sexual sin relationship at the time) but did not dwell on it or browbeat her; He rather dropped the subject and focused on offering her “living water”. Jesus did not condemn the immoral graft of Zaccheus, rather affiliating Himself and fellowshipping with him; in response, Zaccheus took the act of making things right as a result of exposure to Jesus’ holiness and acceptance. Regarding homosexuality, I don’t think Jesus ever mentioned it; is that consistent with it being the “essence of the Gospel”? Jesus did defend another woman charged by the religious leaders with sexual sin, and suggested that they were the problem and not her, while still afterwards privately speaking to her directly (and not through the mouthpieces of the religious establishment), directing to “go and sin no more” once the religious leaders no longer meddled or got between them. He spent most of His indignance and concern about the hypocricy of the Religious Establishment. I think Jesus would still do these same things today.
- I further concede that Romans 1 is probably the strongest New Testament passage used to condemn homosexual behavior, where men “left the natural use of the woman”. However, what is usually not pointed our in the context of this passage is that this occurs because God sent this persuasion amongst the people in question because they had previously rejected God’s ‘truth” in nature by adopting pagan idol worship of stones, etc. Is that the exact circumstances where we find ourselves today? Furthermore, Paul adds that the other equal sinful behaviors God sends as a result are “Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful” (Rom. 1:29-31). Thank goodness we have purged all of these companion behaviors equally deserving judgment from the halls of our churches! Thank goodness our Christian leaders have rallied the nation and churches to stop the behaviors God equally hates such as “covetousness, envy, deceit, whisperers, boasters, without understanding, disobedient to parents, backbiters, etc.”, and worked Congress and lobbyists to eradicate it by statute to preserve the integrity of the Church and God’s blessings! We wouldn’t be playing “favorites” with opposing the sins we are least susceptible to, would we?
- Furthermore, Christian leader alarmists do not continue Paul’s continuation of thought from the end of Chapter 1 to the beginning of Chapter 2, where he confronts the Roman church Christians with this list and says, “Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God” (Rom. 2:1, 3-5). I understand this passage to be about Paul exposing the hypocrisy of church members who condemn others for these things, and then practice similar unacceptable behavior of their own kind itself; Paul says that a “hardness and impenitent heart” is the motivation for this, which is what I view in Christian media and on the Internet today, and God says that in addition to their punishment for thier sins there will be added for their hypocritical, judgmental behavior and attitude.
- God is not implying that the behaviors that are listed are acceptable, including homosexuality, and neither are they to me nor should they be to you, but the key verse is verse 4, that people mired in such behavior are graciously subject to the “riches of his goodness and forebearance and longsuffering”, with such “goodness of God” leading to eventual repentance, which the Church members having had received from God before, but are unwilling to grant to others. Words such as “forbearance and longsuffering” are not in the vocabulary of most American evangelicals today; some good translations even use the world “tolerance”, which is anathema to conservative Christians but is described as an attribute of a supremely holy God, and one for which all Christians have had their “fat saved out of the fire” previously. Christians today seem to think that God either “accepts” or “rejects” a person in their state today, with no “shadow of turning”, but scripture shows that God does a lot of tolerating of us and our behaviors that He hopes to see changed in time, and for which He gently and patiently helps us with. For example, God permitted writs of divorcement even in the the Mosaic code, because of the “hardness of men’s hearts”, and commended kings even when they took multiple wives or did not tear down all strongholds, and even “winked” at man’s idolatrous worship (Acts 17:30); Jesus had a disfunctional apostle group (including a leader who denied Him), and disfunctional churches then and now, but He accomplishes His mission even with their shortcomings that are not resolved. As such, there are rare behaviors and strongholds for which I do not believe we as a Church have to take immediate actions toward others, and thus give active “blessings” or “curses” against, but rather take a “third way”, exhibiting patient forebearance, encouraging them to draw close to Jesus and His word, while God works behind the scenes to guide and deliver. If any of the churches I have attended had said that liars would not be tolerated and allowed to participate, I would have been out of luck, because I have told an occasional whopper, justifying it all the way, even as an adult. Have you? Hopefully God has helped me with the strongholds in my life, while I was in fellowship at church, and they never did protest me once. Sometimes it was for things that I did not recognize as wrong for a long time, but in time God showed me the light, all while I was in church fellowship, and I was welcomed and nurtured during that time. Has that happened to you?
- I think it is important (but even more controversial) to make a note concerning the argument from Christian leaders and pastors that the purportedly pervasive “gay agenda” will one day force churches to compromise scriptural passages on the topic of “Biblical marriage” in sermons, and modify the operation and state of the “family” from its “scriptural norms”. Well, I hate to tell them, but “those cows have already left the barn”. I’m sorry, but I can’t help but see such arguments of Christian groups as hypocritical, since they have already allowed feminism to accomplish all these “worst fears” to change the home and church far more than homosexuals ever will. The feminist movement of the mid to late twentieth century has caused pastors to talk around Bible passages, from the same Bible books and authors that they quote on homosexuality, that guide women to be silent in church, asking their husbands for spiritual insight, and following his guidance as “unto the Lord”, seeing such subjection and obediance as obediance to God, and expecting God’s direction through their husband, possibly even more than through prayer itself. I have witnessed countless sermons that in effect derived nervous laughter from pastors and statements to the effect of, “what God really meant to say was…” on female subjection, rather than sticking with the plain text, such as they do with veiled references to homosexuality. I have witnessed Christian women, including pastor’s wives, demean their husbands at church and elsewhere, mocking them and intentionally disregarding their views or superceding them on matters large and small – a state that would shock Christ and the Apostles if they were to hear it, as being of far more concern than a stray homosexual couple that has wandered in the flock. The family and sanctity of marriages has taken a big beating as a result, and in fact the divorce rate for Christians is about the same as outside the Church – are they to be talling the world that they are the “experts” om marriage, Biblical or otherwise? The irony is that in ignoring this clear guidance in scripture regarding Biblical male-female marital relations, these Christian leaders have evidently decided that the “sky will not fall in”, and they comfortably proceed along with their mission while disregarding or explaining away specific scripture guidelines; so then, why are they panicked about doing the same on the homosexual equation? I certainly do not recommending going to some state of tyrannical domination over females or cruel subjugation, and I believe that God can bless marriages to a degree that are more egalitarian, even if a departure from His Biblical ideal (because of His “forebearance”), but I suspect that the greatest blessings are for those couples who conform to the Biblical model, which would make them a rarety in most churches, and subject to a lot of criticism from its prominent members. So why are they so rabidly aggressive and paranoid regarding gay relationships? I now suspect that the masculine insecurity in Christian men today probably makes them overcompensate in being repelled by homosexual behavior, after seeing themselves as less masculine while inside today’s “feminized” Church. They see shadows of themselves, and a subconscious mandate to compensate by being “macho” in the face of it, to the point of being “homophobic”. That is a popular charge by those outside the church, and our general cultures also contribute (I know, coming from the South) but it is hard to explain otherwise the irrational paranoia expressed publicly from church officials and their followers, which makes the issue “front burner” rather then more legitimate menaces. They do act such that if a homosexual person or couple would be permitted in their midst, their sexual preferencet would thus spread like smallpox amongst the flock, and engulf their youth; that’s why many choose to homeschool rather than being exposed to others who are different. It reflects an insecurity about one’s own gender identity and the strength of traditional values in the face of others, and a senseless suspicion that the masses might discover they prefer the “alternative”. I for one do not plan to change my heterosexuality regardless of others. If parents are so concerned about the choices of their children, then they need to start to demonstrate healthy husband-wife relationships in their own homes to model – is that too much to ask?
- The talk I hear amongst Christian leaders and officials is that a “militant gay lobby’ (which I have yet to see, but maybe exists in California and some strongholds) wants to take over every church, and probably will soon. I am not surprised to find out that almost all of these Christian decision-makers have no gay friends; probably because they are terrified of them that it would rub off, and that they would be rotten, preachy friends tp them anyway. While my circle of gay friends is also sadly limited as well as my knowledge, I find the knowledge of these Christian church leaders to be based solely on profiteering Christian scaremonger demogogues in the Christian media and Internet. You will find almost universally that Christians who have some number of gay friends look at addressing this issue completely differently, even if they don’t condone the behavior, because they know these are real prople of substance and worth, and do not have horns. These paranoid leaders never seem to ask themselves – what if some gay group gets a church – what would they do with it? Honestly, even today any Christian, leader or otherwise, can retain their own views on the matter, if they are willing to pay the price for it (which now is basically nothing, and may never be on this issue). However, the real issue is in trying to protect the “stuff” of the church – real estate, bank accounts and paychecks – which they think are worth fighting for from lawsuits. “Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also”. If churches met ad hoc in rented spaces of homes, without fat assets to protect from rivals, sending their collections right out the door in total to serve the field, this would not be an issue. Could it be that God sends threats like this to liberate church people from the assets that weigh them down, and take up all their time to manage rather than minsiter? Has this prospect (which has occurred in Israel and in the Church historically many times) ever crossed their minds? Meanwhile, while the church is obsessed with fighting the gay boogeyman and in protecting their stockpile, destitute refugees from the world’s war zones have left all and have no where to lay their heads, black kids are gunned down in the streets, the gulf in the superwealthy and those barely surviving continues to grow, and the church has no such alarm or even time for these issues.
- A last point to make is that this topic is yet another one where the church and its (I hate to say it) incompetent leadership shot itself in the foot yet again, by not encouraging secular “civil unions” long ago, to give others similar civil legal rights of inheritance and property transference, tax treatment, visitation rights for the ill, etc. Their “holier than thou” attitude could not exhibit the Golden Rule, which is way down on their list of spiritual imperatives, and did not care about these civil injustices. In effect, they insisted on making what had been a sacred concept of “marriage” into a “government issue”, and then reaped the inevitable whirlwind for their lack of wisdom and foresight. To be real honest, to a large extent even the Church should not be in the “marriage business” – marriage existed long before the Church, and is a covenant between two and God for which the Church has no Biblical say as to its legitimacy. In fact, there is no Biblical citation for church weddings, or church “blessings” of them, and in particular pastor’s functioning as State officers in signing marriage licenses within the church itself. These same enlightened Christian “leaders” not long ago said it was unbiblical for those of difference races to marry, or different social standings. If pastors did not officiate church weddings, contrary to scripture but only in obedience to cultural tradition, they would otherwise not have to wring their hands over whot to marry, and who to restrict, gay or otherwise. I have seen churches “bless” many a marriage which looked like a bad idea from the start, and many more for whom the wheels come off soon thereafter. So are they the real experts on the matter? For that matter, these are the same Christian leaders on a local or national scale (many of them) who have led us to nominate some of the most dumb, incompetent or crooked politicans – like many of them. So why do we trust their spiritual insight on all of these harder things? I recently read a paper from 1834 from the head of the South Carolina Baptist Convention to its governor, showing from scripture alone that slavery was acceptable to God, along with practical reasons why enslaved blacks were better off. You better beware when religious leaders string up arguments with a daisy-chain of scripture, using “sola scriptura” to bully us into positions that run counter to and violate our own consciences – which God says He placed in all of us in nature as just a reliable a witness (if not better) as these Bible-slingers. If you cannot look at the victims of these purported “Bible policies” in the eye and defend them and practice them in their midst, then it is probably a wrong thing to do, and these spiritual “experts” may not be hearing from the Holy Spirit.
So that’s my rant for now. It’s all stream-of-consicousness and I am sure the activists out there can pick apart any of the ideas expressed herein, but I sure feel better getting it off my chest. There is much more to say on this matter, and I may add to this or post further on it as circumstances permit.
To God be the glory.
ADDENDUM:
After having uploaded this original post, I have noticed from some of the comments and commenters, even though it is a mixed bag of supporters, detractors and mixture, that some have taken great offense to my initial comments concerning my deep concerns about the influence of Calvinism on how some Christians look at others, and how it might influence Albert Mohler who wrote the article on homosexuality that I have commented on. I am sorry if I offended any of you fellow Christian readers – I did not intend that. I know I expressed strong words, but I am sure I have been influenced by my studies for the current book volume on church history as it relates to holy wars I am writing, and in particular the section I recently finished in commenting on the era of Calvin and the aftermath. I could not help but observe that when Christians accept the idea that the majority of mankind has been hated by God before they breathed their first breath and will forever be hated with no recourse they have, it seems natural that such people will pursue a theocracy like Calvin’s Geneva to impose their will using a similar irrestible force they claim God uses on people per Calvinism doctrine. Per the writings I have read from Calvin and his apologists, it accordingly seems shy of mercy, empathy, and the subjection to the Golden Rule, which still applies even toward the “damned unelect”. Not only did this create an era of tyranny even against other Christians, the killing of Baptists like me and others, but also fueled the demeaning and genocidal treatment of Indians by the Puritans, by giving spiritual sanction for their eradication. I did not invent these observations; they have been pointed out by large numbers of prominent conservative Christian thinkers and historians. It is also clear that it fuels the current Calvinist-based Restoration Movement which seeks to establish a modern theocracy in America, and according to Gary North intends to eliminate the “heresy” of religious liberty.
I see how people with some degree of connection or empathy to Calvinism have become offended and taken my comments personally, and I did not mean to make it personal. However, while I have been called many bad names, having bad motives and distorting the issues, I still have not heard any direct refutations of the major tenets of Calvinism concerning God’s intention to create the majority of mankind merely to send them to Hell for His pleasure, with the other tenets of TULIP inevitably extending from it. I understand why Calvinists would not want to dwell on this, as well as the obvious conclusion that this motive matches Satan’s, and would like to re-frame it. I do not need to be held accountable for this statement; the people who believe this should be held accountable. If they deny this central aspect of predestination in Calvinism, I don’t see why they would even bother calling themselves Calvinist, because not much is left.
I also want to clarify that I do not have contempt for the little old lady who brings her covered-dish entree to the local Presbyterian church, serves her fellow members and community, and loves God the best she knows; I rather hold accountable the church leaders and other men who I believe should know better, and for whom I would like some answers on how they justify this conviction while saying that God is love and that they love their fellow man. I may have bitten off too much in explaining Mohler’s harsh position against the homosexual community as being at least partially explainable given his Calvinist connection within one post, but I still believe that a danger of considering a “damned without hope” class of people leads one to take a Pharisee-like hard line to those outside their ranks, with little empathy or mercy in many cases.
My only intention is to give food for thought and contemplation – and dialogue.
Thanks for the “consciousness” Dr. Future. We need more of it. Having been partially raised, after the death of my parents, by a lady who was/is gay, I completely agree with the issue you bring up, that of social justice. Having been a model for a large part of my current moral character, my Aunt was a hardcore libertarian school teacher who believed your word is your bond; the truth is the only way to liberty and undue interference by government entities must always be closely watched.
She was always a very active and social woman, even now in her 80’s she has luncheons with friends and goes to the gym three times a week (while battling cancer). But there were occasions I noticed as a young man where certain individuals would shun her if not outright ignore her presence. This is the lady who taught me to walk on the side of a woman closet to the street (so that I got the impact and not her), to tip your soup bowl away from you as you got to the bottom of it and taught me how to fall a tree and shoot a gun. The people that shunned her are so unfortunate that they limited their selves and did not have the privilege that I did and partake of her knowledge.
I could go on and on about her, like how during the Korean War she spent time in country, as a member of the Red Cross to help heal and comfort soldiers on the battlefield, like her brother; or how, into her sixties, she would cut wood, grow huge gardens and read endless constitutional fights that would raise her ire. She was a naturalist, herbalist and lived organic before it became cool.
We never talked about her sexuality. I think she just thought it wasn’t relevant to our relationship, though I never saw her demonstrative. She believed in God, but I believe in more of a way that we would call spiritualism and not Christianity, though she believed Christ existed.
To pick a sin and rank it in such a manner that one is excluded from basic human rights is against the mandate Christ put forth. This is exactly the reason the Church is failing. Like the picture at the top of one of your previous blogs, the view of polichristians (not many but political) is one of Jesus with an AR15 in one hand ready to kill and kick all the sinner’s arses.
Acknowledging a sin is not condoning it. Reaching someone’s heart and soul can’t happen if you don’t let them into your lives. Maybe this is why millionaire televangelist’s never talk about the camel and the eye of the needle in their sermons or why an alcoholic heterosexual is far more accepted than a humble gay woman in society. I’d be more afraid of the alcoholic as so many children and innocent drivers have found out the hard way.
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Bro. Dave,
Thank you so much for your enlightening narrative – just like you normally provide.
I also appreciate your support – I sense (if anyone still reads this blog) that I will need it.
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Reblogged this on Red Moon Rising – Hawaii and commented:
Another good one…
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Wow. I don’t think, even from an Arminian, that I have seen such a distortion of the actual beliefs of Calvinists. Your under wear is showing. Good touch, though, to start your argument off with the oft used genetic fallacy. Acually has nothing pertinent to do with the rest of your argument, other to vent your speen. You used way too much caricature-type argumentation to allow me to take you seriously. Let’s cut to the quick. Homosexuality is sin. And yes, so are those others listed throughout scripture. So? If you are arguing for toleration, say, let homosexual couples attend the church and hope they change, then, per your own argument, you should allow known liars, thieves, alcoholics, criminals, et. al. also attend without calling them on their sins, but hoping you can love them into changing. Not suggesting either acceptance or rejection, just following the logic of your argument. Your diatribe about the imperfections of the church (strangely, it seems, attributed to the more conservative, evangelical segment) is irrelevant to your point. You can make that argument about ANY period of the church. There are always those who do not show the love of Christ, either because of their carnality or perhaps they only claim to be followers of Christ but are, in reality, not. I agree that the body of Christ needs to be a bit more informed about what is really involved in the homosexual lifestyle, and there are books aplenty now appearing for those seeking more information, not just about the gay lifestyle but a more compassionate approach to reaching those in the gay community.(Kevin DeYoung has an excellent book). As to blaming the church for not accepting “civil unions”, this is a moot point. While some gays may have been happy with this, those who lead the gay agenda (and your ignorance or denial of this is astonishing. Read Michael Brown’s book ” A Queer thing happened to America.) have never been willing to accept anything other than a redefining of marriage. You see, they don’t just want us to accept their lifestyle, they want us to endorse it. So your hopes of gently showing them the way is weak at best and hopeless at worst. No one truly comes to Christ without seeing his or her need for a Savior. This means awareness of sin. “God is love” is a wonderful but terribly deficient phrase when it comes to understanding who God is. Yes, He is love. He is also just. He is merciful. And He cannot stand sin. God is not a one size fits all deity. The bottom line is, if you mean to start a conversation, you have probably succeeded. You could have done a far better job if you had kept your bile separated from the topic at hand. You need to read up on Calvinism. And check out Browns book. It is 600 pages long and traces the radical agenda that consumes many in the gay community. It is incredibly well documented. I acknowledge this is a difficult topic and ministry for the church. It must involve love, compassion, and sacrifice. But if in doing those three things and so much more we sacrifice truth, we only enable those already heading down the wide and numerous paths to destruction to continue their journey all the more deceived that a pleasant destination awaits them. Blessings.
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Bro. Chuck,
I think your tone and emphasis in your comments actually proved my point of the post. I hope your approach and attitude leads gays and many others outside the church to faith in Christ and to a safe haven in the church, and not just in building a firewall to protect those inside it.
Thank you for commenting, and taking time to respond to my “bile”.
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Thanks for your response. Being involved in Christian apologetics for 40= years, I have become quite adept at reading between the lines, whether written by believers or non, or cultists. You obviously have a problem with what would be defined by many as conservative evangelicalism. I would not disagree that many churches take the bunker approach. Nonetheless, that is a good way to keep a handgrenade from exploding your church from the inside out. I don’t take that approach, but I am always baffled as to why some Christians think “tolerance” is some magical word that makes everything okay and safe. I don’t think anyone will have difficulty recognizing my tone and emphasis. I didn’t try to hide it. I hope they will recognize yours as well, in spite of it’s covering of sardonic well wishes. My biggest emphasis was your diatribe against Calvinism. What does this have to do with reaching out to homosexuals(I am not Calvinist)? And a regurgitation of past Christian sins does not educate regarding the difficulties faced in reaching people involved in what God describes as an abomination? If your true concern is reaching gays, and not just blaming the church for past failures or disagreeable doctrines, then contribute more than just starting a fire and trying to keep it going. And leave off the sarcasm. You obviously, in reading your own words, have no recognition (or do you) of your insults to those you call (or do you?) your brothers and sisters in Christ. I sincerely doubt that one who shows such indifference to those he shares the body with will actually, while in that attitude, show the true love of Christ to those who desperately need Him (don’t we all?). Leave off the attacks on the church. It is an attack, intended or not, on the Head. The sarcasm is childish and unbeneficial. If you make this blog an attack against Satan instead of the church, I will gladly participate and contribute (I have experience in reaching out to gays).
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Hi Mike,
I agree with much of what you wrote…very articulate as usual. I especially agree with your views on Calvinism as a heresy.
With regard to homosexuality, I cannot bring myself to view it as “just another sin” such as telling a lie. Jesus himself referred to “the greater sin” in replying to Pilate’s questions (and there are other examples), so we know that there is a hierarchy in the types of sins.
Homosexuality in my view is a choice to rebel against a fundamental foundation of basic humanity: the joining together of man and woman to become one flesh. The command to be fruitful and multiply, to ensure the survival and viability of the human race, is one that homosexuals cannot obey.
In other words, the human race would cease to exist.
The sins of homosexuality were described as abominations in God’s sight. Paul’s Romans 1 rant against homosexuality does not find a peer for the sin of lying.
That said, yes, all sexual sin is very serious and abominable in God’s sight, including that committed by heterosexuals. But again, I view homosexuality as a rebellion against God’s foundation institution of marriage between a man and a woman and therefore more egregious.
That said, I believe a homosexual can repent and be saved, but the homosexual must make a choice to abandon the lifestyle 100% and follow Christ, which is the testimony of millions of former homosexuals.
Do you disagree?
David
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David,
Thank you for the encouraging and thoughtful yet challenging reply.
Frankly, I am still working out the details on the most constructive way to view this topic with respect to advancing the Kingdom within the age and culture we live. As I said in the article, I think the Bible indicates that homosexual activity as it was experienced in the era of the Bible was not acceptable to God. However, it was an era when Judah (and I assume others) frequented prostitutes and not only was able to be a Tribe of Promise, but also one that sired our Lord. Kings in general who remained in the general good graces of God had multiple wives, even though His early instructions for Jewish kings forbade it. In fact, I have been told that Israel by and large never did totally obey the Mosaic Law.
I think another thing to keep in mind in the era in which these guidelines were written was that homosexual activity was associated with idol worship; in fact, Romans 1 (as I said in the post) seems to indicate to me that what first starts there was idol worship and a lack of interest in God, which then led Him to give them over to homosexual activity AND the other sins listed at the end of the chapter. As I stated, the point Paul seems to make is in the following verses that start the next chapter, in which he reminds the church members that they had been in the same or similar sins, but God’s forbearance and longsuffering over time patiently let them work through things, which they were not allowing for others. I can’t say whether God looks at all homosexual activity monolithically because very little is written on it in the New Testament (I think the hard line on ALL forbidden sexual activity in the Mosaic Law was emphasized because of the Jewish men’s propsensity to participate in it with Canaanite women), any more than we should look at any other culture outside our own in monolithic fashion. There were many then who performed those acts in religious rites intending to profane God. In many cases, older men forced their will on younger men, like the “respectible” Roman soldiers or Spartans (whom many Christians look up to), or I have read that is still enforced within the halls of prestigious Ivy League societies today. Some homosexuals today want to engage in promiscuity with multiple partners and unhealthy and hedonistic lifestyles – these are the ones that the Religious Right suggest is all that exist. Others I know desire to please and worship God and be involved in a church and serve, but for reasons I cannot fully relate to, draw greater satisfaction in same-sex relatiohships, and choose to be committed and monogamous (which is why they wanted civil unions/marriage). I know some of them (maybe many) had very destructive homes with disfunctional parents, or direct sexual abuse, for which I assume God is empathetic. I still have my own cultural aversion to homosexual behavior that I have had to pray about to see how to minister more responsibly, and to be a real neighbor and love them. I don’t know if God has special forbearance for this latter group, but I hope He does.
I am still working out how to best serve God in this matter, and have more questions than answers; my traditional gut reaction would have been to consign them all as “abominations” and preach them straight to hell, but my conscience will not let me embrace such an uncaring and simplistic answer. I know I am commanded to love them, just like Muslims or any other “stranger” to my way of thinking, whether or not they comply with my lifestyle demands. I would never tell the homosexual person I thought their homosexual behavior was acceptable to God, but for reasons I have cited I think it is a stronghold, often not of their own fault nor even wthin their ability to see it within the bounds of a committed, monogamous relationship of two consenting adults as any more than “victimless” activity. I also sense that the God of the New Covenant is patient with those in such struggles (which is why my aim would be to point them to a relationship with Christ in prayer and Bible study, and let the Holy Spirit then do His work); I am counting that He is similarly empathetic to mine own. Speaking of that, if the main fundamental crime they commit is not having children and procreating, then I and my wife would be equally at fault in our childless marriage or for that matter all of those Paul encouraged to not get married, and rather serve the Lord. If I worried that homosexuality was a contagious disease that converted all heterosexuals (which some seem to think), then I would worry about the fate of the human race, but as such I don’t foresee heterosexuality dying out (at least not while I’m around). Would a homosexual who worships Jesus and professes devotion to Him automatically go to hell if they do not successfully confront and overcome this stronghold? Is the same fate in store for the rest of us who meet our demise (some shortly after conversion) if we have not conquered our own particular strongholds, some of which we can’t even recognize or admit to possessing?
I am encouraged when I see Abraham interceding for the entire city of Sodom, not just the righteous there, which included much more dispicable homosexuality and other rapists and violent types – and God was willing to honor his request of intercession (we’ll never know if God would have spared them if Abraham had not put any qualifications on it). Since Abraham possessed this influence with God, why cannot I as a Holy Spirit-indwelt child of God and future co-administrator of the cosmos use my authority to ask the same thing of Him in intercession for the monogamous variants in my day, and not expect Him to incline His ear? Even if He doesn’t, isn’t it still good to have such an intercessing priestly heart (as Moses did going to bat for the Hebrews who were deserving of death) as a reflection of Christ’s model and example to “not lay this sin to their charge”?
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Nice vent, Dr. Bennett. You say it more eloquently than I ever could. Our artitudes can change, so shining a light on them does do good. Somewhere in my not-too-distant past, I was pretty typical of the proto-Christian you described here. I was pretty antagonistic towards gays, as well as a number of other cross-sections of society that you might encounter at a typical visit to the DMV. But somewhere along the way I grew a heart for the lost. I’m not sure when or where it happened, but it did. Having that yearning to see lost men and women come to the see the saving grace of Jesus Christ makes it real easy to put my sins on par with their sins and approach them on equal ground. It doesn’t matter what makes us fall short of His glory, falling short is falling short.
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It really about a humble attitude of the heart, isn’t it, and not the “fine print”? I hope God will not condemn us at the White Throne for being “too forgiving”. We need to encourage all to holy living, but there comes a time to love some and disciple them in an environment where they can hear from God, on His timetable.
Thanks for your encouraging and instructive comment.
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Dr. Future:
You write that Calvinists believe in a God “that intentionally created the majority of mankind to be sent without recourse eternally to the Lake of Fire, for His expressed pleasure – in essence, having the same desires and agenda as Satan himself. God intentionally withholds the lifeline of saving irresistable grace of salvation because He wants to withhold it.”
Could not the same thing be said of God with respect to the people who perished in Noah’s Flood? Do you suppose that there were infants and young children who perished? Scripture records that it was God’s will for these people to die, and only 8 to be saved.
I’m willing to grant you that I don’t like that story (and other such similar stories), and it makes me uncomfortable. Nonetheless I am called to live by faith, and so I worship the God of Noah, and strive to submit my mind to Scripture. I accept it because I have no other choice, and so must you, if you believe in Scripture and the events it records.
Love,
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Ben,
I don’t remember God saying anything about sending innocent infants and children at the time of the Flood to the Lake of Fire for eternity. Why would a Calvinist so pervert scripture (by saying it is the “same thing”) as to suggest what is not in the text and mislead people while slandering God?
I do have to submit to Christ, and scripture insofar as any particular text was intended to be relevant to me, and in the context and manner in which God intended to communicate reality, as far as I can grasp it. I do NOT have to submit to the Calvinist, Pharisaic rabbinic-style hateful and exclusionary revisionism of the text as they contort it, to defend their scornful doctrine regarding God and mankind as a primary mission, and I am unimpressed with their supposed “expertise” or brow-beating tactics. If their doctrine were true, it would indeed be a bummer when many of these elitist supposed “elect” get to heaven and find out their sovereign God did not decide they or their loved ones were elect after all, and end up being sent to the Lake of Fire for God’s pleasure regardless of their wishes, while those they thought were beastly unelect wave from inside the Pearly Gates – I guess they could at least take solace that they were right after all.
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Dr. Future,
My point was that the Flood was an act of judgment that God willed to do, just as Hell is a judgment. The typology of the Flood and salvation in Jesus Christ is explained in I Peter 3, in case you were wondering why I would bring it up.
Throughout Scripture, God judges whole cities and whole nations, including all of the people who live there, young and old, small and great. Based on the standards of fairness and justice we normally employ, is that fair? Is a God who does these things worthy of worship?
How you answer depends on the degree of faith you have. Based on your previous comments, I have reason to doubt you would consider a God who decreed the Flood as a judgment on mankind worthy of your worship. My purpose in bringing it up is to help frame the issue in the hope that you would take back what you’ve said about Calvinists, acknowledging that both you and they serve the same God.
If you believe Muslims and Christians serve the same God, why is it such a stretch for you to believe Calvinists also serve the same God?
Love,
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Due to the Fall, innocent lives suffer at times for the decisions of others, including those under the guardianship of those who defied God, and possibly did who knows what with angelic forces which may have manipulated the very genetic nature of those people, according to some (which I cannot verify, although it is described in ancient sources and insinuated in various scripture passages). This is tragic and brings no pleasure to God, but the big difference is that God works on a timescale of justice that transcends our mortal lives, and I am competent that He will more that make up for children and other innocents in the World to Come, just as He does for the martyrs and others – He holds heavenly trials after this age to judge the free will actions of those who violate the righteous path that God had placed in their souls, bring justice to their victims, and award those who free will actions bless God and advance His kingdom. Although the rebellious people of the Flood are truly the ones to be held accountable, God will still fulfill the task of securing justice and restoration of those caught in the crossfire.
This discussion was not about the Muslims, but since you bring them up, they claim to worship the God of Abraham and the prophets, and claim that Jews and Christians do the same, although we know they do not acknowledge the divine nature of Christ as Christians do, but they do recognize Him as the Word of God, sinless, born of a virgin, a prophet and one whom God raised from the dead. As far as I know, Muslims have not embraced the Good News of Christ’s atoning sacrifice that foregoes the fruitless task of earning God’s favor by good works, but they do recognize the Judeo-Christian legacy of the knowledge of God suffiicent that they do not attribute to Him the motive of the creation of the majority of mankind merely to send them to the Lake of Fire for His pleasure.
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As someone who has lived decades “in” the gay community and has begun to find his way out through Christ, I sincerely hope that you realize that living in sin is not something Christians should be tolerating. To warmly accept someone who is yearning to turn away from homosexual practices (or any other sin)–I agree that this form of acceptance and Christian support is very worthwhile. But unless you have ever truly lived in the gay “community” lifestyle (which is anything but good or truthful or healthy) I HIGHLY recommend that you reconsider the position you’ve framed to simply tolerate the sin to somehow avoid further hypocrisy in the church. We are, after all, called to be salt and light. Salt is what preserves, in tact, the word of God and the call to find the narrow path back home.
I’m sure it isn’t intentional on your part, but the practice you recommend reminds me of the Frankfurt School policy to slowly water down the church (in order to destroy it) through the clever use of “tolerance” and a “poly-morphous” perversion of the truth. One can more easily destroy a good thing by slowly watering-down its integrity than by an outright attack. The latter is defended against while the former simply goes unnoticed until there is nothing left to defend. I too have a doctoral degree (in Culture Studies) and know very well what I’m talking about regarding this attack on the Church, and its deceptive use of “tolerance”.
I would want to believe that you simply wish to suggest a kinder, gentler way to treat gay people, and I can appreciate the heart that wishes kindness. But there are many dangers in the tolerance of sin. Jesus didn’t accept the sin of those he healed and His amazing grace may unbind us from the legalism of the Pharisees, but the detestable nature of homosexuality described in Leviticus was not a legalistic binding. It is a declaration that homosexuality is wrong. The detestable nature of sin didn’t change with the gospel. We are to love God and one another without the artificial constraints of law. But that doesn’t mean that sin is now something we learn to tolerate. On the contrary, with the presence of the Holy Spirit, it’s something we learn to see beyond legalism as unholy and unhealthy.
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thanks for your post Jerry. Good and helpful stuff. I am glad the Spirit of God now dwells in you and that Christ is your savior. Honored to have you in the family.
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.drfuture2013. I apologize for my earlier comments. I had mistaken this site as a discussion about how to reach the gay community for Christ. Instead it is obviously about attacking an embarrassingly inaccurate caricature of Calvinistic beliefs. How childish of you. Truly an example, as Christ Himself referenced, about talking out of both sides on one’s mouth, telling people what they should do, but not doing it yourself. For those of you who applaud this unchristian type of behavior, I exhort you to search within your own hearts and see if the Spirit of Christ confirms this sort of heart attitude. No wonder the secular world laughs at those who claim to be Christian. What would a gay person find attractive about reading this. Calvinists (and again, I am not one) are heretics??!! You’ve just accused tens of millions of Christians of heresy. Why? Just because YOU don’t like what they believe. You’ve also tossed a significant portion of biblical scholars who still take the time to defend the Bible as God’s word and orthodox Christian teachings. I may not agree with the teachings of certain denominations with the Body of Christ, but to accuse them of heresy? Your pattern of inaccurate and overblown definitions of Calvinistic beliefs belie your true intent. Either you are malicious or too lazy to acquaint yourself with the truth. Either way, you encourage unbiblical attitudes and behavior. I warn all who read. This blog, despite usages of “Christian” words, is not of God. No one can say they haven’t been warned.
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Pot… Kettle… Black…
Perhaps there is justification though, being that it’s just one Christian being accused of heresy.
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Let me explain my discomfort with the “doctors” comments. The beginning salvo of demonizing Calvinism is a tactic I have often seen used by those whose real attempt is to render obsolete conservative and or historic orthodox Christianity. Not all Calvinist (or any denomination for that matter) believe the exact same things, so to lump them into one category is unfair and inaccurate. Then to exaggerate or redefine their beliefs to make one’s argument seem more persuasive is disingenuous at best and deceitful at worst. Many in the emerging/emergent church do this very thing, though certainly not all. This movement, in a laudable attempt to make the church more “relevant” to society, has an unfortunate tendency to jettison the cardinal doctrines that make Christianity distinctive from other religious or cultic beliefs. And attacks on the doctrine of predestination (hard or soft, single or double) have led many in the “Open Theism” (the denial of God’s foreknowledge) has almost invariably led them to an embracing of universalism (which ironically Arminius himself did not teach). Clark Pinnock et.al. are examples of this pseudo-Arminian belief. These beliefs inevitably lead to an attack on the sovereignty of God himself. The argument concerning the ancient cultic practices and homosexuality activity is a non-sequitur. Idolatry did not lead to homosexual practices. Already prevalent homosexual practice was incorporated into cultic rituals in the same way heterosexual practices were. To insinuate that Paul, or even the O.T. was merely condemning these practices because of their involvement in idol worship would be like arguing that violence, drinking, and murder were only condemned when involved in idolatry. The sin is what is condemned, not merely it’s situational usage. Humans are made in the image of God, and in certain ways to reflect that image. God made them male and female, to complement and reflect one another, and if done in a God ordained way, this would reflect the glory of God. Male to male or female to female sex no more reflects God’s image than man to beast does. It’s not the way God made us. Idolatry is whenever we exalt someone or something above God and His desires for us, whether it money, possessions, sexual desires, etc. The situation does not ameliorate the sin. Those arguments have been answered decisively long ago. If this blog had been started along the lines of “hey people, how can we love and reach the gay community, I would see it as a much needed (though another among many) discussion opportunity. The fact that it started with an attack on a large segment of the body of Christ does not body well (please, Calvinists are not heretics any more than charismatics are or messianic Jews are). And the statements railing against God “sending” anyone to hell are immature and ignorant. Scripture makes it abundantly clear that those who go to hell CHOOSE to go there. They willfully reject God’s attempts at reconciliation. Romans 1 makes it clear no one, absolutely no one, is without excuse. If convoluted attempts at twisting Scripture are one’s best attempts at making God more palatable to others, one might need to realize he or she is actually trying to make God more acceptable to themselves. God is sovereign. God foreknows. God predestines. How you deal with that is, of course, up to you. Just don’t fall into the trap of making God in your own image. Reaching out to the lost is not a good idea or useful ministry, it is a COMMAND. I don’t care much how people do this, what means or how creatively. I just know that showing love at the cost of truth is no love at all. When we redefine truth or God, we commit idolatry. When we exalt ours or others feelings above the desires of God, we commit idolatry. Whether and with whom we are having sex with does not change this.
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Thank you for sharing this good food for thought, Bro. Chuck.
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sorry about above typo. I meant “bode” well.
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I can never condemn typos, of whom I am chief of sinners!
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Dear Mike,
Thank you for being willing to raise these issues. Since you mentioned two related issues in a single post — an elephant in the room and an 800-pound gorilla — it is to be expected that reactions, to one or the other, will be both strong and varied.
Your post, stimulating an on-going conversation among Christians, may serve several good purposes. It has certainly been helpful to me.
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“I still have not heard any direct refutations of the major tenets of Calvinism concerning God’s intention to create the majority of mankind merely to send them to Hell for His pleasure,”
Why refute something that does not exist, If you want to be taken seriously by a reformed person you need to cite the reforms creeds or confessions that state this so called claim, as i have not come across any reformed creed or confession that states this spiteful rhetoric.
So why not cite Calvin directly or if you want to attack the reformed Christians cite the creed or confession they adhere to instead of carpet bombing with strawman arguments.
Please cite the source material for your quote above. I want to see the statement that says God creates people for destruction for his own pleasure from Calvin or the reformed creeds else retract this as divisive and misleading statement.
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Nobunaga. I sympathize with your sentiments but I have been trying to get the “doctor” and others to get off of Calvinism and back to the purported topic of this blog, witnessing to the homosexual community. Of course, the good dr. can respond if he wishes. I agree with you that these are caricatures of actual Calvinistic beliefs (as I have previously stated, I am not a Calvinist) are not helpful. I do not think he will be able to provide the documents or quotes you desire, because they do not exist. I think it was just a diatribe to set up the topic. If the good dr. wants to change the topic, I will go along, but I am interested in any substantive input concerning reaching out to the gay community. Now that they have succeeded in getting homosexual lifestyles “normalized”, it is even harder to get through to them. How do you encourage someone to give up what is now considered just as normal as heterosexual marriages? If most people say it’s okay, where do we as Christians find our starting point? Personally I would answer the Bible, but unfortunately the church itself has done a great job of shooting itself in the foot in regards to Scripture considering outright heretical teachings or the relegation of it to “myth” status. Again, I affirm your concerns and await to see where this blog journeys to. Blessings.
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I’m no superstar evangelist, or witnessing phenom, so please understand these are just my humble views, but true witnessing does’t bring conversion through the willful effort of the one sharing their testimony, no matter how zealous. It’s through the Spirit of the One who authored the conversion in those who are witnessing that hearts are touched, and lives are surrendered. It’s God who changes hearts, not men. Ezekiel 36:26-27
We are dealing with heart issues here, and trying to take a cerebral approach by throwing scriptural catch phrases at people to engender a change, no matter how sincere the intention, just doesn’t make the cut. Satan can recite scripture.
It’s through the living Word that the power of the Spirit of God moves. How alive is the Word in you? I ask this question only rhetorically. Not in an exercise of judgement, or to illicit condemnation, but in a sincere gesture towards self reflection.
Only by sharing the light from within us, that was once shared with us through grace, can we hope to find light in another. May Jesus bless you.
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good words Hajeer. Words we need to keep in mind and acknowledgement of the sovereignty of God. Amen
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[Nobunaga] “I still have not heard any direct refutations of the major tenets of Calvinism concerning God’s intention to create the majority of mankind merely to send them to Hell for His pleasure”. Why refute something that does not exist…So why not cite Calvin directly…Please cite the source material for your quote above. I want to see the statement that says God creates people for destruction for his own pleasure from Calvin or the reformed creeds else retract this as divisive and misleading statement.”
[Chuck] “I do not think he will be able to provide the documents or quotes you desire, because they do not exist.”
Nobungaga (and Chuck as well): “Your wish is my command” (I just got back into Internet coverage after being remote a couple of days).
I will quote the “granddady” source document of Calvinism: John Calvin’s own The Institutes of the Christian Religion, from the very words of Calvin himself (I also looked it up and read it myself). Here’s a few quotes right off the bat for starters:
“Scripture clearly proves…that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was his pleasure one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was his pleasure to doom to destruction.” Book 3, Chapter 21, paragraph 7
“Those, therefore, whom God passed by he reprobates, and that for no other cause but because he is pleased to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines to his children” Book 3, Chapter 23, paragraph 1
“because by his eternal providence they were before their birth doomed to perpetual destruction…what will they be able to mutter against this defense?” Book 3, Chapter 23, paragraph 3
“Now since the arrangement of all things is in the hand of God…he arranges…that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” Book 3, Chapter 23, paragraph 6
Need I go on? Could Calvin himself make this any clearer?
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cheezy-peezy. Just when I thought we would get somewhere, here we go again. To the doctor, I don’t think anyone is ignorant of the fact that Calvinists teach predestination. You’ve only proven what we should already, and I assume, most know. What you have to do is prove that what You mean by predestination is what Calvin means by predestination. And you also have to deal with the various strains of predestination adhered to by all Calvinist. There is now soft and hard Calvinism, and single and double predestination. Is that really what you want to spend time delving into on a blog dealing with the gay community. I repeat my contentions that the original diatribe gave a caricature of what ALL Calvinists believe. If you want to clarify this issue, explain what YOU mean by predestination. Then I will clarify for you the different strains of predestination currently adhered to by different Calvinists. And again, by implying all Calvinists (and this incorporates quite a few denominations, including many evangelical churches) belief exactly what Calvin is supposed to have taught is like saying all Lutherans are anti-Semitic. I know what Calvin taught. He’s been dead a few centuries. As church history shows, beliefs can change or evolve over a long period of time (i.e. the early church, the fathers, etc.) But bottom line, is this where you want to take this blog? Jerry Sumpter, see above, shared an insightful testimony given from experience. I very much appreciate his helpful and educating insights. Hajeer, see also above, give a corrective exhortation that we all would be wise embrace. This is what I find helpful. You, good doctor, are running the blog, so you decide.
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Excellent thank for taking the time to quote source material, I wasn’t expecting to stump you on this, there is an abundance on predestination from reformed creeds and confessions and writers, this was and still is historic protestant orthodoxy.
you make an emotional case against predestination based on your idea of what is the best for mankind.
“This is described as a “predestination” in which God irresistably foreordains the destiny of most people to eternal agony”
Do you realize the hubris of this position, and who it truly is who thinks God is unjust and thinks he can do a better job ? please take this seriously Mike as I follow your work and think highly of you, Jon levenson wrote in the ‘creation and the persistence of evil’ ” page 156 which you should read if you havn’t ” humanity must learn to adjust to a world not designed for their benefit and cease making claims (even just claims as job) upon its incomprehensible designer and master. To make such claims is to throw off the yoke of obedience to God and become like the mighty leviathan.
I hope you caught that because its not coming from a calvanist its coming from a Jewish scholar who deals with the text and lets the chips fall where they may.
This universe is radically theocentric, and remember it was job who made no defense for God but in the end submitted to his mastery over the universe and stopped his mouth from speaking further folly and charging God with being like the leviathan.
Back to the reformed confessions. Cannons of Dort
Article 15: Reprobation
“Moreover, Holy Scripture most especially highlights this eternal and undeserved grace of our election and brings it out more clearly for us, in that it further bears witness that not all people have been chosen but that some have not been chosen or have been passed by in God’s eternal election– those, that is, concerning whom God, on the basis of his entirely free, most just, irreproachable, and unchangeable good pleasure, made the following decision: to leave them in the common misery into which, by their own fault, they have plunged themselves; not to grant them saving faith and the grace of conversion; but finally to condemn and eternally punish them (having been left in their own ways and under his just judgment), not only for their unbelief but also for all their other sins, in order to display his justice. And this is the decision of reprobation, which does not at all make God the author of sin (a blasphemous thought!) but rather its fearful, irreproachable, just judge and avenger.”
This is biblical doctrine and can be supported by scripture verses, so why not submit to scripture and refrain from letting your own ideas and philosophy drag you away from the solid ground of orthodoxy that has been tried and tested.
Thanks Chuck for the response ! I dont want to drag the blog off topic so i’ll stop here.
Dr Future i dont stand or fall by TULIP reformed people hold to the confessions and the creeds so hopefully in future you can cite those if you have a problem. We are very open about having a set of beliefs that people can scrutinize and even attack.. Do you ? Do you hold to a creed or confession ? or have you taken the memra course and now need no creed 🙂
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good stuff nobunga. You foreknew what I was going to say, so you must have predestined it. So I have no choice. LOL. Seriously, most definitely embrace your message. It grieves me and bothers me when I hear comments, from both believers and non, that such and such God is not the kind of God they want anything to do with. How arrogant. It’s like spitting in His face, or on the cross. There’s so much disagreement about predestination and a host of other doctrines and issues. That’s why I am with you on this. I don’t care how God deals with sin in this universe. I just know Scriptures tell me He is a just God who cannot sin, or even make a mistake, and especially make a mistake. Whatever He wills is perfect and just, so whether He predestines, or just foreknows, or doesn’t know (open theism), etc, I trust that He has got it all under His control. Whatever He does and however He does it, He is just. Whether we like it or not. And the sooner believers mature and start thinking about our God that way the better. All the other stuff is our problem, our perspective, our lack of understanding or trust. He is God. I am not. There. I lose. He wins. Score everything for God and nothing for me. I bow before Him in submission and trust. Thanks for your good and edifying words. Now can someone help me witness to the gay community?
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Chuck and Nobunaga,
Just to be clear, I (and many like me) do not blame God at all for any “unfairness”. We do not have any beef with God, but rather with those who attribute those characteristics and motives to God which we do not feel are supported by scripture.
Regarding the quote from the “Canon of Dort” that claimed that scripture intimated that God left those unlucky enough to be the “nonelect” variety of sinners as being doomed into a “common misery into which, by their own fault, they have plunged themselves; not to grant them saving faith and the grace of conversion; but finally to condemn and eternally punish them (having been left in their own ways and under his just judgment), not only for their unbelief but also for all their other sins, in order to display his justice.”, I have a question. My question is that if I understand the general concept of Calvinistic predestination, that God foreordained the actions of all people, including these non-elect, then how are these actions which are irrestibly ordered by God therefore make it “just” to condemn as “their own fault, they have plunged themselves”, and “left in their own ways” for their “unbelief but also all their other sins”, which were a consequence of being originally prescribed by God? Again, my dispute is not with God, but those I feel misrepresent Him.
BTW, Nobunaga, I understand that you see this principle you present as obvious “biblical doctrine” and “solid ground of orthodoxy”, and seem to view any alternative understandings as one’s “own ideas and philosophy”, but to be truthful the majority of the world’s Christians disagree with this view and its overall Biblical support, and hence make it hard to classify as “orthodox”, and would in turn see it as merely Calvin’s “ideas and philosophy”, as well as Augustine’s to a large extent (who also devised much of Catholicism’s doctrines).
Thank you for clarifying these points, gentlemen.
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your error is easy to identify. You, along with many others, feel that predestination, by definition, means that all things that occur in this universe MUST occur. This is your error. Predestination, and it’s companion word, foreknowledge, simply means, to most all who encounter the words, that because God foreknows all that will occur (including events that God wills should happen without fail, and those events that occur because of God giving His creation free will)this HAS to mean that God wills everything to happen. Walter Martin had a good viewpoint on this. He said “While Scripture makes clear that God wills that some WILL be predestined to heaven (think John the Baptist, Jeremiah, etc) scripture NOWHERE clearly states that God predestines ANY to hell. Martin here is taking the whole of biblical teaching into account. He did not believe that God EVER “makes” anyone go to hell, in the sense that they have no choice. If He did, I would agree, from our perspective, this would seem unfair and unjust. I emphasize from OUR perspective. Which, under the best of circumstances, will always be partial and incomplete. To attempt to define what Calvin meant by predestination (he preferred the word “election”) by a couple of quotes from the Institutes is premature. Unless you understand Calvins other emphasis, especially on grace, you will never get the complete viewpoint. Calvin felt there was nothing, nothing at all (including what remained of the “image of God” with which we were created) in ourselves that would ever lead to or deserve credit for receiving salvation. Nothing. It all comes from God. If He doesn’t enlighten or even give us the faith to believe, we will never comprehend enough or understand adequately our current fallen, sinful, condition. For those of us who have believed in Christ and received salvation, all and every bit of the praise and glory go to God and none to us. This of course is what Arminians find objectionable. They believe in grace, but believe that we must make the first step in believing. Calvin did not accept that. He did not believe we were even capable of making the first step. He believed that unless God put that ability in us to believe unto salvation, we would never on our own reach that point. That is the context that you must put the definition of predestination within. It was never an attempt to define God as arbitrary or unjust, but an attempt to give ALL glory to God and NONE to us. He would have thusly argued against, let’s say, the Federal Covenant viewpoints holders of today who believe we can be truly and completely saved by the sacrements (i.e. baptism, even as a child) but can lose that salvation if we do not remain within the covenant, i.e. works of holiness or godliness. Calvin would vehemently object. His response would be, we did nothing to obtain salvation of ourselves, therefore we could do nothing to lose it. To accusations of antinomianism, Calvin would reply that God elects His chosen ones, He will provide what is needed in this life to complete that election. It is in that light that you must understand predestination or election. Calvin would also, as he often did, warn that the deep things of God are not for idle speculation in theology. I imagine he would be aghast at amateur theologians waxing eloquent on this topic. He would think that arrogant and harmful.
Besides this, as I have pointed out before, there are variegated viewpoints on election even within Calvinism so it is unfair and intellectually lazy to throw them all together and then demonize a simplistic definition. I would wager that many Calvinist haven’t studied the topic anymore than many (most) Christians haven’t studied or do not have an orthodox understanding of the Trinity.
And again, you have not even given what you understand predestination to mean. It is obviously a biblical word, and it certainly means something!!! So if you have no understanding as to what the bible means when it uses the word, on what grounds do YOU feel free to condemn the definitions of others. Again, there are many shades of this doctrine (hard, soft, single, double). Is your objection based on what you feel is an incorrect understanding? If so, supply what you feel to be the correct understanding. Otherwise you are just whining and attempt to stir trouble and prejudice against a significant part of the body of Christ. There are biblical injunctions against such behavior. I trust you are aware of this. Don’t just respond with ” I can do so because I believe it is heretical”. WHY do you believe this. Your displeasure with the belief is irrelevant. Who cares. We don’t determine truth by popular vote. EXPLAIN what it is you don’t agree with, and then follow with appropriate and supporting scriptures. Would you define Open Theists as heretics? Those who still observe the Saturday Sabbath? How about those who divide over subordination within the Godhead? Certainly these beliefs redefine who God is or what He desires of us.
Either prove your original complaint, or just let it go (my greatest wish). Whatever you do, show a little humility and restrain your compulsion to accuse others of evil. I am sure their sincerity is as pure as yours is.
And lastly, as I have said previously, I am okay with WHATEVER God deigns. I am in no position to accuse Him of anything. How arrogant and ignorant I would be if I did. If He does predestine in the way Calvin and others have envisioned, then so be it. I am not qualified to be His judge. You might want to be careful when, in the process of demonizing a belief, you use certain adjectives which might cast God in an unsavory light. What if you are wrong? Are you meaning to say that if you find something possibly objectionable about God or what and how He fulfills His will, you will actively and consciously reject Him? REALLY? The moment the word unfair enters our minds when thinking about God, we are already deceived by and under the influence of the evil one. I will worship my God regardless of what He does and how He decides to do it. I shudder for your soul if you don’t. And remember, I am not a Calvinist.
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“I have a question. My question is that if I understand the general concept of Calvinistic predestination, that God foreordained the actions of all people, including these non-elect, then how are these actions which are irrestibly ordered by God therefore make it “just” to condemn as “their own fault, they have plunged themselves”, and “left in their own ways” for their “unbelief but also all their other sins”, which were a consequence of being originally prescribed by God? Again, my dispute is not with God, but those I feel misrepresent Him.”
Dr Future people who ‘Choose’ to sin are responsible for their sin, people who refuse the Gospel do so by their own volition. Now if you expect me to peek behind the curtain of divine will and explain this… you are in for quite the wait. God is sovereign and man is responsible this is the reformed and biblical view You cant come unless the Father Draws you and man resits the Holy spirit, both are true but there is divine wisdom here that is too high above us.
“BTW, Nobunaga, I understand that you see this principle you present as obvious “biblical doctrine” and “solid ground of orthodoxy”.
I qualified what I view as orthodox based on the historic orthodox protestant creeds and confessions, i care not for what passes as “Christianity” today. Again …what creeds and confession do you hold to ? at least i’m up front and honest about it, what do you believe ?
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Thanks for your response.
I guess the old Apostle’s Creed would be satisfactory if I needed one, but to be honest, I do not see Jesus nor the Apostles commanding me in scripture to accept any artificial “creed” – particularly those defined centuries later by those with many other hangups like everyone else. Ephesians 2 talks of the household of God being established on the apostles and prophets, with Christ the chief cornerstone; that is adequate for me, and I do not need any artificial, uncalled for creed decided by a committee of stranger bishops of uncertain motives, using sometimes extra-Biblical terminology, for the mere purpose of developing a reason for anathemitizing their rivals as heretics, often for largely undefinable aspects of concepts such over-specifying the nature of the Trinity. History seems to show to me that creeds have been used more as political tools by the church and their political allies, and I see no need to homogenize belief on debatable points; I am comfortable with the principle of the priesthood of the believer rather than the primary emphasis on excessive conformity.
Having said all that, there are many instances where I would agree with points of many creeds, albeit there being worded more for political expediency in many cases, by my observation.
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The Apostle Paul commands us to “stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.” 2 Thess 2.15
So having a creed or confession is not only biblical but very important especially today where all things are being redefined, and if you are out there without a confession or creed that is solid and you will be at risk of being lead astray by all manner of redefining and postmodern nonesense.
Dont know what ‘history’ you have been reading, in my country people who held fast to the protestant faith were killed in the thousands by episcopal kings and Rome so i dont rate much your take on this ‘history’ but if you care to elaborate i’ll be all ears. Look at the solem league and covenant for starters were a country in repentance pledged itself to God and the bible, yes from the highest to the lowest pledged themselves to true relgion and the bible after the reformation.
I love the time lapse argument that goes something like this….well these guys were thousands of years after the early church so their views are next to meaningless ? Can you explain the logic behind this patently false assertion please. It probably sounded good when you heard it but now someone is actually holding you to it, its rather difficult to defend, in fact its impossible as if it were true your view is more anthropic than theirs as you are further along in history.
Anyway Mike i’ll give you peace now and leave you alone. one request if you dont mind , just read the heidelberg catachisim it is very short and can be read in one sitting, see if it is not full of spiritual gems my friend.
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Nobunaga, you, as we say in the u.s., hit the nail right on the head. Mr future may or may not belong to what we call the “emergent/emerging” church, but I would not be surprised to find that he does. This recent (a decade or two) development within the Christian church comprises a group of people of whom many, not all, but indeed many, seem to be comfortable jettisoning whatever parts of the gospel truth that they, and of course, unbelievers are disapproving of. Thus we see the downplaying or outright denial of hell, and the watering down of many of the moral mandates we find in scripture. Thus the encouragement to “embrace, not endorse” those in the gay community. I have not, however, seen any kind of intelligent response as to how we are to do such a thing. Wouldn’t the embrace be seen as an endorsement? Or do we hug them, say Jesus loves you, and then add, in hushed tones, “but we don’t endorse your lifestyle”. Does anyone really think this will work? As I pointed out in earlier posts, which were ignored, the militant part of the gay community is NOT interested in tolerance. They want approval. An endorsement. An embrace isn’t going to do it for them.
Your post about the need for creeds, etc. is also spot on. I find it humorous yet sad that those claiming Christianity as their faith seem willing to totally ignore it’s complete history, especially as to what price many paid for these creeds to become reality. The Nicean creed was paid for with almost three centuries of persecution and death. The protestant creeds were paid for with the same, though perhaps shorter lifespan. Everyone lives with creeds. At work. At home. At church. In society. Whether written or spoken, we all live by creeds. The statement that Jesus or the apostles didn’t tell us we needed creeds is facile and ignorant. Your scriptural response was adequate all by itself to demolish such a weak argument. I have in previous posts sounded a warning to all who come here. I sense behind the scenes that there is much more at work here than a discussion about reaching gays. In fact, there has been no such discussion at all, that despite the reason given for starting this blog. What we have seen are ad hominem attacks on other believers, weak and fallacious attempts to attack others beliefs, and a virtual total ignoring of rebuttal questions or counter-points made in response to the same.
If someone really wants to find out what calvinians and arminians actually believe, a book titles “DEBATING CALVINISM” by James White and Dave Hunt is available.(try cbd, Christian book distributors). This is a no holds barred throw down debate by two men on the merits of Calvinistic teaching. Another book is “Four views on eternal security” published by Zondervan. There you will find classical and moderate Calvinism and moderate and Wesleyan Arminian viewpoints debated. Do this for your own benefit. Do not listen to rants and caricatures thrown out on this blog. They are done with an agenda. Educate yourselves by reading different viewpoints delivered in reasonable and in point by point debate styles. I have no idea what the real purpose of this blog is, but it isn’t to find ways to witness to the gay community. Again Nobunaga, very well said.
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Chuck,
Where did you get any idea this whole blog was about the gay issue? Just because of a post on the topic? Have you been lurking around the web, just looking to swoop in on debates on the topic?
Are you saying that just because I find inconsistencies in a single confession for which the majority of the church rejects, and did not exist prior to Augustine (who is responsible for many Catholic doctrines as well), that I am suddenly part of the Emergent church? It is apparent that you do not know me at all, or my years of body of work (some better, some worse) on Future Quake, defending the Biblical worldview versus all the modern deviations you insinuate with me. The other readers who are familiar with me from long ago all know this, and their comments reflect this, including the many that have been sent offline. My only observations have been when our religious heritage and culture gets in the way of the original ways of Jesus and the Apostles – I say this as a person who has served faithfully for half a century in conservative Baptist churches.
My point is that our zeal to embrace legalistic, law-based mindsets and primary emphases, beyond the “weightier matters” of the law – justice, mercy, etc. – all done in subjection to 1 Cor. 13 which trumps the worship of doctrinal models, is something we should think about; I knew I would get push back from a handful of those who elevate single views of religious legal aspects as supreme (as I might have been myself a decade or so ago). As an old conservative country Baptist pastor said in a service I was at recently – “Legalism is for children”. Growing into spiritual adulthood in the Spirit has to factor in higher factors – what actions edify me or not even if legalistically allowed, how does it affect my brother if I do it, and how does it impact the witness of myself and the Church, Jesus and the Gospel to the outside world. The Bible shows that these higher matters than legalism may permit you to do things that are legalistically frowned upon (eating with “sinners”, meat sacrificed to idols when alone with a generous pagan), and often restrict us from indulging in things that are legally permitted, given the context (eating meat from idols or even consuming alcohol if it might cause a nearby weak brother to stumble). This focus on the higher matters that look at the ultimate goals and well-being of the Kingdom and Christ’s mission is what Christ taught and why He sent the Holy Spirit to guide us, to help elevate us out of the “milk” of legalism. Now THIS is the kind of subject that is more like the REAL purpose of this blog, and I want to invite any open-minded, Bible loving people committed to Jesus to join the conversation,and learn together!
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Chuck, I forgot to mention – the mindset on how to minister to gays IS in my original post, including ample Biblical principles, if you will be read it closely, and listen to the Spirit (or at least your conscience God gave you). To derive anything useful from it, one must have “ears to hear” – the Pharisees were experts on proof texts on their scripture, sufficient to cleverly derive their own legal ideology, but they could not hear from God.
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well doctor, my assumption was based on the obvious fact that, aside from the excursion to attack Calvinism, the rest of the post was about witnessing to gays, sanctity of marriage, not letting traditions of men override scripture (with an ironic warning against the use of sola scriptura). Was his blog about the heretical nature of Calvinism that devolved into a discussion about reaching the gay community, or was it a blog about reaching the gay community that you felt was best introduced with a caricature of Calvinistic beliefs, perhaps giving those who didn’t want to attack gays something more appetizing to feast on? Amazingly, even in your response, you still don’t clearly state what this blog is about. Clear answers here are hard to come by (unless they are about Calvinists). There are some things I agree with you concerning, such as biblically ignorant Christians or poor attempts at outreach by churches. This, however, could be a relevant discussion during any century of the churches existence, so what is gained by doing it now I don’t know. But when you launch off into “Calvinists worship a demi-gurge deity with mal intent…etc.etc., you just indulge yourself in childish trope. That would not be the response of any Calvin were you to ask them to describe their God. Makes for good straw men to knock down, but it is either ignorant of you are a lie. I won’t go into defending calvin’s teaching, again, I am not Calvinistic. It is especially an exercise in futility when you seem determined to hide your own views. I would just suggest that if you have no concept of what predestination is, perhaps you would spare yourself embarrassment from attacking someone else’s. Grabbing random quotes by supposed representatives of an entire group of people to proof text your point is the old “poison well” method. I guarantee you that if you identify what group, church, denomination, etc. that you belong to, I will be able to find wild and wacky things said by “your” representatives.
Your words on legalism seem irrelevant to this discussion. Are you implying Christians reject homosexual sin because they are legalistic? Holding to old and outmoded beliefs? If we were more “HIP” and with the times would this allow us to slough off the chains of pharisaism and be more accepting and embracing of the gay community.
Let me help you a bit. I tried before but I don’t think you read it. Calvinist focus on the sovereignty of God. Arminians focus on the free will of man. There. It can’t get any simpler. All of their arguments revolve around these two issues. Arminians believe God loves ALL his creatures equally. Calvinist believe that God differentiates with His love. The arms believe if God doesn’t love all equally, He is not correctly exercising His love. He is partial. Scripture says He isn’t. Cals state that nothing in scripture demands that God love all His creatures identically. Do We?? Of course not. Do you love your neighbors wife the exact same way you love yours? You better not. Do we love our kids more that some strangers kids. Of course we do. Thus the question, if the creature is given the ability and freedom to differentiate in it’s love, how can the Creator be denied the same freedom and ability? Are we not told by Christ Himself that our love for Him, when compared to our love for others should be so different in intensity that it seems like love compared to hate?
Your either inability or unwillingness to acknowledge or understand that there are hyper-Calvinist and hyper-Arminians that go much farther than Calvin or Arminius did with free will and predestination has created many various shades of both of those belief systems. For the interested reader and researchers I recommended a few books above, Debating Calvin, Four Views and eternal security. Another good one by Oliver Crisp is Recovering Reformed Doctrine in which he briefly overviews the teachings of various reformers.
Yes, all the reformers hard warts.Guess what? All the church fathers had warts. I don’t know that I have ever encountered any of them without finding a teaching or two or three that I did not agree with. But to read them and then interpret their words and actions from a 21st century setting is both unfair and dishonest. Yes, sin is sin. Congratulations. Now go look in a mirror. In America especially we study in our comfortable studies with nothing on the line more threatening than missing the start of the football game. These men and women put their lives on the line in what was usually a violent setting with much state interference with church and doctrine. Give them some slack. Make sure you have no sin before you pick up the first stone.
And again, while I am not wild-eyed frightened believer seeing demon conspiracies around every corner, there is a segment of the gay community that is quite militant and has a serious foothold in the political realm, the press, the media, in the education system. Did everyone see the case of the Texas (yes, Texas) teacher suspended because she refused to call a little girl by a boys name? Some days the girl wanted to be a boy, other days a girl. She constantly changed her “boy” names. I could see why the teacher, from a reality viewpoint and practical one, decided she would address her as what she was. A girl, Nope. Girl gets upset. Parents get upset. Teacher suspended. In kindergarten!! This is happening almost everywhere. Countrywide. They’ve gotten the gay agenda into all levels of education. I will recommend again Michael Brown’s A QUEER THING HAPPENED TO AMERICA. He is a messianic Jew, writer of 20 plus books included an excellent four volume work on witnessing to Jews. IT IS WELL DOCUMENTED. You will be enlightened (if you want to be) and I believe surprised. Does this mean we should be paranoid? Sorry, it’s beyond that. Fearful? No. But certainly not unawares, as Paul would say. Unless you can prove through scriptural gymnastics that God has fundamentally changed His nature and holiness, homosexuality is a sin, more specifically from God’s perspective, an abomination. If you can prove that’s changed, by all means do. I’m not saying we shouldn’t be motivated by love. That’s nothing new. God always taught that.
As far a Jesus never mentioning Jesus, I would hate to hang someone’s eternal fate on an argument from silence. John tells us it would take innumerable books to include all Jesus said and did. Perhaps he did mentioned it but it wasn’t written in the Gospels. It certainly is written about in the Epistles. Paul said He was taught directly by Christ. Does that count. Peter and Jude deal with it. Where’d Peter get his information? Make it up. But above all this, I do believe Jesus does address the issue. In His Revelation, specifically Rev. 21:8. The participle bdelygma means same-gender activity as can be seen incomparing rev. 22:15 where “dogs” occurs. Comparing the two lists shows kyon takes the place of bdelygma. The word dogs derives from Dt. 23:18 where the term occurs beside “female prostitute” and parallels the qades and qedesah of vs. 17. Thus, dogs refers to male prostitutes. (see also lev 18:22 and 20:13. The words in Revelation are spoken by Jesus.
Whatever your “mindset” is that you are propagating here, I hope you are balancing it with a full and totally biblical schema of truth. What I am afraid of is for the church to do what it always seems to do (and even you mention it in one of your posts), and that is to run away, surrender to the sin (accept it) or just hide our heads as long as it doesn’t affect us. Your statement doctor to the effect you are not sure there is some sort of gay agenda outthere, somewhere, or a militant gay lobby, does leave me a bit dazed. You seem to be someone who’s current with societal happenings. How you could have missed this is amazing. Is it because you are young? Or I am old? It isn’t hard to miss. And it’s been insinuating itself into all of our lives day by day for decades. How do you explain 1-3%(from best secular sources) of the population getting so much attention, so much publicity. How can such a small percentage overturn in a matter of months the entire definition of marriage. Answer. It didn’t. They’ve been at work for decades. And they are not finished. And if you or anyone reading this blog thinks for a second that by smiling and extending a friendly hand you will slow their momentum you are delusion. Of course, the Bible told us this would happen. This sin and so many others. the list is big. Creative witnessing and sincere attempts at outreach are laudable. It’s just so sad that more often then not what actually happens is that the church surrenders critical and life giving truths in order to “purchase”, as it were, results. Thus, good doctor, those heretics you love to attack make up the greater part of the church that still believes truths are worth living and dying for. And not just Calvinists. Not all reformed are strict Calvinists.
Bottom line good doctor. All we know here is that you despise calvin and think too many Christians are legalistic (would that be biblical literalists?). We know what you don’t like, but don’t know what you do believe. You’ve pointed at problems and offered no solid suggestions. And when you decide what this blog is actually about, fill us in.
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another ? for the doctor. In point 4 of your opening diatribe, did you really mean to imply that God gave the men practicing idolatry in the past the predilection to homosexual behavior? Really? As what? Punishment? Reward? Are you saying they weren’t already practicing it but as punishment God “sent” this persuasion to them. Wow. Talking about a demiurge mal intent God. What love it this?
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sorry about the above. I meant Jesus mentioning homosexuality. Hope everyone figured that out. I’m beginning to ask myself, is all this typing worth it. Apparently no one is sure what this blog is about. The doctor denies stating a given topic. Anyone learning anything? Except that Calvin sucks and no one needs creeds. It really is true, isn’t it? When you remove God from the picture, anything is permissible. Anyone want to argue about tongues?
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Accepting forgiveness seems to be easy part, the “sin no more” part is where we ALL have the problem.
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